Vineyard Movement
We have been attending a new church for the past month. We've attended a "vistors welcome meeting" and I even went to a men's breakfast last Saturday morning. The question I have for you, my dear visitor, is; What do you know about the Vineyard Movement?
When we first heard about this church, we thought that Vineyard was just a name, like Mars Hill, but it actually indicates its affiliation with the Vineyard Association or Vineyard movement. At our visitor's meeting I heard the term "Vineyard Movement " used for the first time.
I had no idea what it was . . . so I asked and was told about John Wimber and a brief history of the movement. I've since done a bit of googling on this and found a wide variety of views of the vineyard for example: The Vineyard movement is a hyper-charismatic organization that is also known by the names of "third wave," "Signs and Wonders Movement," and "power theology." - - also I read some equate the movement with heresy or a cult. I've read how there is an emphasis on "spirit-driven" worship, like speaking in tongues, prophesy, and even "holy laughter" ( from a Toronto group which has since been booted from the organization.)
This is all new to me. What do y'all know about it? I'll be honest, so far we really like this church - the services are very interesting and the people seem friendly. I'm just curious to learn more about the vineyard movement, if any of you have had experience with it, postive or negative?
When we first heard about this church, we thought that Vineyard was just a name, like Mars Hill, but it actually indicates its affiliation with the Vineyard Association or Vineyard movement. At our visitor's meeting I heard the term "Vineyard Movement " used for the first time.
I had no idea what it was . . . so I asked and was told about John Wimber and a brief history of the movement. I've since done a bit of googling on this and found a wide variety of views of the vineyard for example: The Vineyard movement is a hyper-charismatic organization that is also known by the names of "third wave," "Signs and Wonders Movement," and "power theology." - - also I read some equate the movement with heresy or a cult. I've read how there is an emphasis on "spirit-driven" worship, like speaking in tongues, prophesy, and even "holy laughter" ( from a Toronto group which has since been booted from the organization.)
This is all new to me. What do y'all know about it? I'll be honest, so far we really like this church - the services are very interesting and the people seem friendly. I'm just curious to learn more about the vineyard movement, if any of you have had experience with it, postive or negative?
posted by Black Sheep at 3:28 PM
80 Comments:
The only thing I know about the Vineyard is that they have a church in the building where I work and that, as you mention, they have some sort of ties to the Holy Toronto laughter thing. Sorry!
In my psychology of mysticism course, we read some about the whole Vineyard movement. There is an entire book on the Holy Laughter phenomenon. My impression is that they are a little too charismatic for my tastes. I'll try to round you up some resources.
http://www.vineyardmovement.com/
Each individual church, of course, should be accepted or rejected on its own merits, but I highly suggest reading through this site and remain cautious.
might help to remember the link...
http://stoptheblight.googlepages.com
i am a member of of one the branches of the vineyard community church. and i can attest that the church has no ties whatsoever to the "Holy laughter" phenomenon. This as well as several other false claims of members speaking in tongues is absolute B.S!!! please attend an actual service before believing 4th party rumors and conspiracy theories about a religious institution.
Ive been a part of the Vineyard Organization at many levels over the past 8 years; visitor, member, leader, church planter, worship leader.
What I've learned about the core theological beliefs of the Vineyard, specifically with regard to the Gifts of the Spirit and movement of God, is that we exercise 'Naturally Supernatural' movement by God in his Kingdom. Meaning, hyper-spirituality and extreme behavior as the opposite. Not faked or forced.
We do believe that God has the power to move in any way he chooses, and if that means he wants to heal or give words of prophecy, then he can, and will.
So, if you want a couple of phrases that sums up the Vineyard Belief in the Holy Spirit, 'Naturally Supernatural', as in not contrived, not faked, not forced, but by grace and God alone. The God who will do whatever he wishes, with anyone willing to be a vessel.
By all means, dont take my word for it either, as the comment previous to mine stated. See for yourself. Remember though, the Vineyard is not for everyone, and God does not call everyone to a particular 'Body Part' of the body of Christ.
Ask him to show you where he wants you to go, and he will :) Ive found a home in the Vineyard, but am willing to go wherever he shows me.
run away. run very far away. you'll only be hurt by these people. i am a childhood victim of the Edmonton chapter. they are a bunch of outcasts from other churches who would not accept them. there is a reason they would not accept them. i will not tell you my name for fear of retaliation. but they all know who i am.
If ever there were a case study in good search engine optimization it would have to be the rapidnet article about the vineyard that so many people seem to come across, (and form their opinions about the Vineyard based on). This is the article you cite when you mention the phrases "hyper charismatic, third wave etc.).
I am an Associate Pastor at a Vineyard church and would like to chime in with some thought off the top of my head.
I think some of the people who commented here (the church planter, and the person who suggested you go see for yourself) offer the best advice.)
Specifically related to your points: The Vineyard being a "movement" really has to do with not wanting to be another "denomination", which was a point of contention among those who were in the Vineyard early on. (The fear was that formalizing in an overly rigid way might smush the life out of something beautiful that God was doing.
The Vineyard today is officially a denomination (Though no one talks about that very much) in my estimation, The Vineyard might be characterized by the values of authenticity, passion for Jesus, outward focus,honest relationship mission, contemporary, intimate worship all steeped in the expectation that we serve a living God who actually wants to DO STUFF! (heal people, set them free from addictions, restore their marriages, inspire, call and commission them to serve the poor, the widows, the orphans, the vast middle class so tied up trying to pay their mortgages that they haven't had the chance to notice that God LOVES the stuffing out of them!).
The vineyard is an association of churches that share common values , of course you will find different emphasis and cultural expression, style/flavor depending on where you go, what season that particular church is in the midst of with God...some churches/times/meetings may have more or less supernatural stuff going on that others. (If that freaks you out, does it help to remember that God is supernatural?)
The whole Toronto blessing thing is a part of the history of the Vineyard (The church where the really intense stuff was happening was a Vineyard Church.) That period was difficult for the vineyard and caused a lot of tumult, it was a mix of good and some bad, just like every other family in the world. There is a great book about the History of The Vineyard called the "Quest for the radical Middle" that openly recounts all that happened in that period. If you are very ineterested in the topic.
Anyway, I just felt like talking about the Vineyard. I love the Lord and know that The Vineyard is one expression of people loving, serving and following him! You can learn more and hear sample sermons from around the movement at http://www.vineyardusa.org
Blessings in a big way to you!
I was totally new to the Vineyard myself but have been attending for several years and am now a member @our church. I have to say that the whole charasmatic thing was totally new to me. I was taught that the gifts of the spirit was dead with the apostles ect. growing up. After much study for myself with an open mind and applying only what the bible talks about in regards to the power of the Holy Spirit I have found nothing at our church that is not biblical. Give it some time and study. If you see something you're not sure about research it in the bible not just google. Much of what I have found on google is very biased and full of twistings and half truths. Again base your theology on the Word not google. Good luck in your search. Go were God leads you. I am so glad my family has
I can only echo anonymous' comments. Run for the hills. The Vineyard is a cynical movement. In the UK, the failing vineyard church I attended was all but over powered by the UK senior leadership team which was more intent on preserving the "Vineyard Brand" than helping a loving group of people keep a church together.
Furthermore, gray-area financial irregularities of a senior pastor were rapidly brushed under the carpet when he died.
Terrible. Lost my faith as a result and now happily worship at the alter of sense, reason and being an altruistic human being.
I've been visiting our local Vineyard church and really enjoying it. I've been 3 Sunday's in a row, and I've loved it. The worship is real and the pastor is more of a "teacher" than a "preacher". I'm takining it slow, but so far so good!
My family and I have been attending the Vineyard Church for one and a half years. My marriage is better for it, my children love the social bit. We talk a lot about morales, values, helping those less fortunate. Not only do we "talk", we "DO". Very hands on, non-hypicritical. Our pastor is a teacher of ours. He explains, shows the way in a non-pushy way. It is very casual and we love the music.
I was raised as a Catholic, later attended the Quaker Friends Meeting for a while. Vineyard is the place where me and mine feel most at home. At least where we go, there is no pressure. Only social events and bible study groups that are totally voluntary. We actually sponsor a woman's bible group at my home. I have never personally heard the laughter nor tongues that others have spoken of. Not to say it does not happen, but where we are (Central America) we stay away from the more Charismatic and lean WAAAAY more toward helping the poor with a rather serious focus.
About giving money.... We give what we want each week, which is about $5. Some give more, some give less. No one has ever asked me what we give, nor encouraged to give more. Only give what you would like. All in all a pretty reasonable, friendly experience. Never met a nicer bunch of folks.
A lot of what you read about Vineyard beliefs is rubbish and extremely twisted and uninformed. They are not true. How do I know? My family and I attended the Vineyard for nearly decade and we love it there. Our pastor is one of the most spot on biblical teacher as we have ever come across and we listen to many preachers. To know what a Vineyard church believes, sit down and talk to a Vineyard pastor. Compare everything he says with scripture. You will find that they believe in the sufficiency of scripture and EVERYTHING in it, not just leave things out by unbiblical rationalisation of why God does not do miracles today. They preach Jesus and preach the gospel as having the power to save. They have an amazing outward focus and heart for the lost, more so than any church we have ever been to. They encourage daily bibe reading and prayer. I find it astounding that some people think preaching that is consistant with the bible as heresy, while they just leave big chunks out and pretend it's not in there at all.
Finally, people in the Vineyard are to busy doing God's work to go around criticising other churches. They live under Gods garce and extends that grace to others. If only other churches were just as busy with kingdom work.
Hi there!
In the late 80's to early 90's my husband, myself and our three young daughters went to a new "church plant" Vineyard Movement in Greater London. We absolutley fell in love with it. We "served" as you do, me as a homegroup worship leader, and my husband as a chair put-er-out-er, tea's coffee's,etc, etc, etc! We were there for seven years altogether and found it very exciting. We felt like part of a family, but sadly it all seemed to change when John and Ellie Mumford went to Toronto when the so called "Toronto Blessing" started happening. They brought the so-called "anointing" back with them to the fellowship they were leading in London, so that they could pass "it" on, which they did!
Wish they didn't though because in hindsight seeing people just throwing the "anointing" or whatever around like that and shouting "More Lord" is pretty offensive, I thought we had to be obedient to the Holy Spirit, not the other way around???
The rest of the story about the Toronto/Vineyard separation is on the internet if you care to "google" it.
We left the Vineyard very battered and bruised, the love that was once shown was not there anymore.
"The fruit of the Spirit is love"
We have recently read a disturbing article about the "Kundalini Awakening" and its frightening similarities to what we saw with our own eyes at Vineyard.
Feelgood religion isn't enough. Experience is a poor foundation for truth. A church must meet the standard of God's word rightly divided and rightly understood. Keep your eyes open. Never suspend critical judgment. Better still, find a church that isn't defined by personal experience and subjectivism.
I Am wondering if this blog is still going at this date in 2012
Yep, it sure is.
My experience of the Vineyard Movement is that they place their priority on their music which they like to call "Worship" But, but, BUT worship surely means not thinking more highly of ones self than one ought to, prefering others' to onesself, sacrificing self for the sake of others.Serving one another as to the Lord. If anyone wishes to be a leader then they should serve not expect to be served. I spent servral years at a Vineyard and it was a far cry from anything that the Lord commands us to do in His Word and that is to LOVE one another. You only have to read through the whole of the gospels to find out how Jesus feels about proud and arrogant hypocitics who have no love for others and just want to show off their own achievements ("crowns"). LOVE is who God is and love is what remains even when prophesies and all the other gifts cease. Maybe we all should remember that the "Fruit of the Spirit" can only be produced by The Spirit and our character should reflect that. I want to be more like Jesus but I know that I am a long way off at this moment in time, but I am being changed from glory to glory one stage at a time as long as I remain in Him and His word remains in me I will bear much fruit, fruit that will last. I want to remain faithful to Jesus until the very end, I do not want to get caught up in a so-called movement that has little or no substance because at the end of the day it may appear to be doing "good works" but surely its not the quantity of work but the quality that still remains after being tested by fire? Lets serve Jesus in true humility and allow His light to shine - really shine through us,Amen???!!!
Whoops, nearly forgot,today's date is 16th April 2012
Not biblical. God speaks to us through his Word. Feels like a cult IMO and focus was on ourselves as people rather than God. That's why people feel good from it...
I was a member of the Cincinnati Vineyard Community Church for 18 years. I visited several other Vineyards during my stay there. I was there during the Kansas City Prophets and the Toronto "blessing" controversy. "Holy laughter" and a whole heck of a lot worse absolutely indeed has ties to the Vineyard. It was the Toronto Airport Vineyard Church that began practicing and teaching this nonsense. Vineyard Music Group even to this day still publishes a worship CD that was recorded during this time at the TAV. "Winds of Worship Volume 3: Live From Toronto, Canada". You can also further consult "The Quest for the Radical Middle: A History of the Vineyard" by Vineyard pastors Bil Jackson and Todd Hunter for more evidence. They cover the entire sorry Toronto fiasco in their book.
This aside, the Vineyard Association of Churches began as a "Jesus People" hippie movement that attached itself to Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa, California very early on. Later, after an amicable split, these Jesus People, who had already begun referring to their little movement as The Vineyard, hired former Righteous Brothers pianist turned charismatic Quaker pastor, John Wimber, to serve in the role as their first senior pastor. Together, they began to spread their heretical message of free love, world peace and far out groovy Spirit experience to the world. John gave the whole thing a corporate makeover so that it would carry a more midwestern appeal.
The Vineyard is a seeker-sensitive, false gospel, idol worshiping association of what can only be loosely termed, churches. It would be more honest to term them corporate hubs. Attendees new and old find themselves to be the subject of the worship music as well as the subject of the sermons. Services have the sound and feel of a Tony Robbins seminar, complete even with a corporate mission statement: small things done with great love will change the world. Awww, and here you didn't think you were all that important, did you?
David, I don't know how you arrived at your conclusions, but your facts, like those of many who posted on this blog, are way off base. I have attended 4 Vineyard churches over 25 of the last 28 years. John Wimber and the Vineyard did not teach free love nor world peace. Everytime I saw him preach or listened to his tapes, he taught the gospel. You may be referring to Lonnie Freesbie's (an early figure from the Jesus people)personal life and his struggle with homosexuality, but that is certainly nothing Vineyard taught or condoned. As far as Toronto, Vineyard ended its relationship with the Torontc church because it would not reign in the excesses that were clearly not of the Lord. Personally I haev seen many come to the Lord, many fed, many healed, many set free through the Lord using Christians at Vineyard churches. Vineyard. Sweeping generalizations are usually inaccurate, and they are here. Vineyard is not perfect nor is any church, and neither am I or you who criticize. Please do not let fear and lies become the basis of your conclusions. I suggest you read "the Quest for the Radical Middle" to get a balanced view.
I should clarify. I should say reread "The Quest for the Radical Middle" becuase if you did you couldn't conclude that in the end Vineyard just accepted everthing going on there at the time. Thanks.
Bill, it appears that you have no idea what the gospel actually is. God does not love everyone, Bill. God loves only a very select group of people whom He had chosen in Christ for salvation from before the foundation of the world independently of their choice. He hates everyone else, and has predestined everyone else for destruction.
Romans 9:10-24 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, THOUGH THEY WERE NOT YET BORN AND HAD DONE NOTHING EITHER GOOD OR BAD — IN ORDER THAT GOD'S PURPOSE OF ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not because of works but because of him who calls — she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it depends NOT ON HUMAN WILL or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” SO THEN HE HAS MERCY ON WHOMEVER HE WILLS, AND HE HARDENS WHOMEVER HE WILLS.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? WHAT IF GOD, DESIRING TO SHOW HIS WRATH AND TO MAKE KNOWN HIS POWER, HAS ENDURED WITH MUCH PATIENCE VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION, IN ORDER TO MAKE KNOWN THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY FOR VESSELS OF MERCY,WHICH HE HAS PREPARED BEFOREHAND FOR GLORY — even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Free will is a lie, Bill. Christ did NOT die for everyone. He died only for those whom He chose for salvation. Only they will be brought to faith in His effectual atoning death.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:26 you do not believe because you are not My sheep
Read 1 Kings 22:13-23, Bill. Read Genesis 3:15. There are two seeds; the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.
This has always been Christianity, Bill. Read the Westminster Confession of Faith, 1642. Read the writings of the Reformers. Read Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the Will." Read Calvin's "Institutes." Read the Canons of Dordt, 1618. Read Augustine's "City of God." Read the Canons of the Council of Orange, 552 AD.
CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him "unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, "No one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:3).
Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those
1. Who teach that the perseverance of true believers is not an effect of election or a gift of God produced by Christ's death, but a condition of the new covenant which man, before what they call his "peremptory" election and justification, must fulfill by his free will.
For Holy Scripture testifies that perseverance follows from election and is granted to the chosen by virtue of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession: The chosen obtained it; the others were hardened (Rom. 11:7); likewise, He who did not spare his own son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not, along with him, grant us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? It is Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised--who also sits at the right hand of God, and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? (Rom. 8:32-35).
Read up on the free will heresy of Jacobus Arminius and the Remonstrants, Bill. You will discover that the Vineyard has nothing whatsoever to do with the gospel, but rather everything to do with Charles Finney.
Wow Dave, I hope Jesus chose you...
religious nutters who use religion to extort money from people using devious methods. some of the people there are criminals who hide behind religion
mereligious nutters who use religion to extort money from people using devious methods. some of the people there are criminals who hide behind religion
We had to visit the Palmdale Vineyard a couple of times for baptisms. I wouldn't consider them a church nor would I want anyone passing by on the street to see us there. My first experience; I used the restroom where I encountered a woman shooting up during the service. We left before the baptism began because the pastor made some strange comments that people should place their wallets and purses on the chairs behind them but only if they trusted that no one would steal them. They were advised to check and be watchful as to who was behind them.
We did not meet any new people who did not have a drug story that they believed we wanted to hear.
The second time a family member insisted we be supportive of some of their friends. Apparently that place puts out the message that it is ok to go out and do drugs, and become publicly drunk and harm people by stealing over and over because God will keep forgiving you. Well the forgiving part is true but nowhere do I recall that it is fine to repeatedly do the same thing over and over when it is harming yourself or others and then be proud that you are forgiven.
Upon checking a little further we learned that within the community, drug counselors are making, but not forcing the addicts to attend the church. They believe that it will get them lighter sentences. Once they get what they want, don't show up anymore.
Our opinion is that they are not what they say they are and are knowingly allowing themselves to be used by entities to draw in visitors that want to present a false image of themselves as having a larger congregation than they really do.
The Vineyard is a brand. A corporate brand that claims to be Christian. In my dealings I found it to be shallow with a free-for-all attitude towards faith and morals, with candyfloss feel-good teachings.
If you can get hold of the church accounts (especially megachurches of the Vineyard) you will be shocked as hell when you see what the pastor is creaming off the flock.
Amazing, how such a contemporary and funky go-getter church can still run with an old testament law to the Jews about "tithing" 10% and not even blush.
Pardon me as I speak to with an authoritative emphasis. The reason that I do this is simple. I have been through a great deal of pain from this 'movement'. I have also done many many hours of research after my own involvement with the Vineyard. So I will try to be brief and to the point.
Initially I felt as you do about my experience at the Vineyard. They have a theology that emphasizes worship and experience over the scriptures. There is also a great deal that leadership believes that they will not convey to those who are not a part of the inner circle. Much of what they believe can be found from research. In particular, the writings and beliefs of John Wimber are still completely employed by every Vineyard I have been involved with. Though they may not tell you about their beliefs and will seek to convey that they believe that God's word is inerrant and infallible, they do not believe this or teach this.
I know from personal experience that this is a very dangerous group in these last days. They have all of the earmarks of false doctrinal groups. One of the things taught is that God is greater than His word. How can this be true? First of all this is the foundation of the error found in the Vineyard. A minimization of the importance of the Word of God and a focus on experience rather than the word of God.
God's word is filled with warnings about false teachers and false doctrines. God warns us for a reason. Much of what is taught in Vineyard Churches has its roots in New Age practices and teaching. Do your research and as much as you may want to believe that these folks and experiences are of God, be honest with yourself and get out while you can. You are in danger of having your life and family destroyed and finding yourself on the wide path that leads to damnation.
I worked for a Vineyard Church for 7 years attended the church for 3 years prior to working there. Let me put it this way, walk away and never look back. I can completely agree with the Anonymous person above that speaks about tithing. Ten years of my life wasted and I can't get it back. (Let me tell you, I am a Christian. This Vineyard Church is B A D news.)
WALK AWAY AND NEVER LOOK BACK!
The vineyard I attended encouraged the vulnerable to be more vulnerable and I witnessed a lot of manipulation and narcissistic cult activity.I found it spiritually unhealthy, intrusive and lost a good friend in the process. I would encourage my children to avoid this place when they are older but to study the bible often. The vineyard I attended was in Carrickfergus.
Vineyard rarely test the spirits through
scripture search or knowledge aquired
by diligent study. Has a history of allowing
Jezebel that calls herself a prophetess
to teach and others.It rarely faces sin at
it's source and deal with it.
The Vineyard Church I attended for the past few years is disbanding the end of this month due to division and loss of members. Although not the sole cause, one element is some teaching by the pastor that seems false to me (and many others) when held up against scripture. The apparent casual structure of this denomination seems to be a vulnerability the Enemy would try and exploit.
Lots of disinformation about VCF of America. It seems to stem from the false information circulated by Hank Hannegraf on his program, "The Bible Answer Man." The Toronto Airport Vineyard through Rodney Howard Brown's influence started manifesting strange and unproductive manifestations. The overseas for the region was Rich Nathan in Columbus Ohio. He was disturbed by the phenomena and teaching or lack there of. He brought in John Wimber who worked with the leaders to try and bring the church back in line with the Evangelical nature of VCF.
Ultimately The Toronto Airport Vineyard Leaders chose to follow a radically new direction. They were asked to leave the association of Vineyard Churches. VCF made this known to Hannegraf who confirmed the information in a face to face meeting, but kept misreporting the Toronto heresy as being taught by all Vineyards (known as a strawman fallacy). Several attempts were made to correct hannegraf's misrepresentations but they continues for years.
For an accurate understanding of what Vineyard teaches, you can read , Empowered Evangelicals by Rich Nathan.
VCF was also not related to Kansas City Prophets although there has been significant participation by members of same at Vineyard conferences.
Should have stated that I have been involved with Vineyard movement since 1986 and led home churches, led church-planting teams, ministry to prisons, youth ministry, and evangelical outreach at VCFs.
Secondly, I hold to the entirety of the Westminster Confession except the Antimolinist clauses.
Finally, I take a center-set as opposed to bounded-set view of Ecclesiology (see Heibert's article in Athropological Reflections on Missiology). Which is the approach of focusing on the core doctrine and let people mature in their understanding of systematics, exegesis, and hermeneutics so that they can come to deeper doctrinal understanding through the hard work of renewing their minds with the help of the maturing work of the Holy Spirit.
Bounded set - think paternalism, a pastor that says here is the right doctrine to the nth degree. Just sign the doctrinal statement checking all 25 statements the you agree and promise to defend all to the death and report others who do not.
Loyalty fathered than renewed minds seems to be the premium for these churches. Members see themselves as bodyguards over sound doctrine. For an example look at the shameless arrogance of John MacArthur in his Strangefire conference! He has good core doctrine and only misses some minor points about the gifts still being operational. But instead he mocks his fellow Christians and has the character of a religious leader of Jesus' day! What a disgrace as an ambassador of Christ.
But he does teach sound doctrine!
Point is to make a difference I broken lives (and sin breaks everyone) you are going to be able to minister to 1-2 orders of magnitude more individuals if you have the gift of words of knowledge, than if you have just perfect doctrine and say an apologetic background from say Geisler, WL Craig, or Josh McDowell. Those guys are great and McArthur's systematics are great but when someone has lost a loved one and blames God, a word of knowledge can bridge the gap and soften the soil to plant seed. Most individuals in the Evangelical movement are unwilling to risk being embarrassed.
Truth is they would rather rely on their knowledge of scripture rather than risk failure. Also they don't seem to recognize how much God is relying on them being like Jesus in order to accomplish his work. When I disciple Evangelicals they are stunned at how effective the HS is at changing their family, coworkers, and friend lives. But I always have to teach them how to be willing to fail and be embarrassed in order to average some.
For those open to this approach, you will never destroy doctrine, only the work of Satan in people's lives.
I don't know how a person could adhere to the Westminster Confession of Faith and yet deny some of the articles found in its first chapter.
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter 1
Of Holy Scripture
I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church; and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary; those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.
V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word: and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all: yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.
What the Scriptures say, and what the Westminster agrees with is that the knowledge of everything necessary for God’s glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life is either stated in Scripture or can be deduced from Scripture without adding any new revelation or tradition of men.
Why then would a word of knowledge be necessary if the knowledge of everything necessary for life is contained in the written word of God?
Psalm 119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous rules endures forever.
Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true, He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you and you be found a liar.
MacArthur does not teach sound doctrine. Nor has MacArthur ever written a systematic. For a sound systematic, I suggest Reymond's systematic, or better yet, Hoeksema's Reformed Dogmatics.
As for sound doctrine, I suggest some of the Puritans. Abraham Booth's "Reign of Grace" for instance, or John Owen's "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". But if the likes of Gill, Flavel and Crisp are not to your tastes, then why not try George Smeaton's "The Apostle's Doctrine of the Atonement". If you would prefer something a bit more modern to read, as well as something you can get through quickly on the bus or subway, then I highly recommend Gary Long's "Definite Atonement".
As far as confessions go, the Westminster if fine in its own right and all, but I would recommend the Three Forms of Unity, and I speak as someone who favors the Scottish theologians.
This aside, if you wish to investigate knowledge and epistemology, then I could not steer you away from WLC fast enough. The man is everything wrong with Christian philosophy today. I would instead steer you towards Cornelius Van Til or Gordon Clark. In fact, speaking of Clark, here is the president of Trinity Foundation right now, speaking to the same subject you are. Notice the drastic difference between someone who is faithful to Scripture versus someone who is faithful to the Vineyard's vapid seeker-sensitive, emergent movement.
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=53
Here again: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=45
And here I am if you ever interested in discussing true doctrine.
https://cornbreadandbourbon.wordpress.com/2014/10/20/the-mere-intellectual-assent-fallacy/
I would like to add my comment. Its 2016 and using discernment is key in this. If you are heavily a part of something, by human nature your loyalty will lie with that thing or person to which your loyalty is committed. The reason I say this is because its perfectly normal to use their emotion as loyalty than their reasoning through God's eyes and not their own. A man by the name of Robby Dawkins is a leader out of Illinios in a Vinyard Movement church. He has "inspired" a young leader in my hometown to become q movement leader but this movement does not profess to be under the Vinyard umbrella. Since the influence of Mr Dawkins over this young man through his mentorship, his hosting of teaching seminars about the power of the Holy Spirit, and the movies he has roled in, my hometown has spiritually gone to hell. We have the holy laughter in our churches where a lot of young people are a commodity. There is convulsion, "whoa" outbursts, appearance of being electrocuted, screaming and writhing in position or falling on the floor, and false prophecy. OH AND THERE'S LOVE. LOTS OF IT. IT FEELS GOOD. IT LOOKS GOOD. IT SOUNDS GOOD. But the sermons are full of garbage that keeps the members believing repentance is not necessary. In my experience with these believers I have found myself outcasted, shunned, and silenced because I questioned the doctrine and many other issues. Yes they believe in doing for the kingdom but the reason they are set on doing is because the demons behind their miracles and practices are chomping at the bit to steal away God's children from the truth. I will say this though. If there are those people who argue for movements like this but your gut tells you something is wrong, do what's in your gut. Thats the Holy Spirit. If those people had the true Holy Spirit, they wouldnt be particpating in this heresy. God said in hus word that there will be a great falling away of those from the faith following after doctrines of demons and seducing spirits. Satan doesnt have much time left so evil and witchcraft has risen up in churches deluding God's children because they care more about feeling good and getting drunk on laughter and manifestations in their own bodies than seeking a relationship with Jesus and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin and they will be judged for that. If its not for you, dont go. Warn others but know if their heart has chosen delusion, thats what God will give them and they will reap the punishment here and after for leading God's people astray and for their own accountability of seeking the truth. No one will be able to blane anyone else for their salvation or condemnation on judgment day but themselves. For those of you who want to check out the truth, you may want to research Heidi Baker, Kundalini Spirit, and Andrew Strom has a great documentary on youtube about false spirits invading the church. Not everyone will be saved or get into heaven as the devil and these doctrines are proclaiming. How can out names be blotted out of the book of life unless we were at once written in there. Idolaters, fornicators, thieves, murderers, etc will not enter the kingdom of heaven. These people dont believe they have to repent. They believe that they can just give the love of Christ in its emotionality and not the tough love that is discipline and truth that you need to change. Dont have any part of this or you too will reap the judgment. Blessings.
Hello, God bless. First of all, I am an ordained Christian Minister, with a license.
I must warn ALL people who are engaged in the Vineyard Church, as I have been involved, and in just under a year as a member I have tragic news to report. The Vineyard church, from my experience is that it appears on the surface to be a God believing church, and I've found a lot of loving people that go there. The bad news, is I have read on line reports about people being hurt to the point of leaving the
church, as well as a number of pastors. But underlying all this "love" is a cruel, calculating leadership that if you say anything that is not positive, like some negative experience, they brand you and even place people on "membership restriction" and people from the outside the church who go to them pleading for help, to get proactive and preach against sin are ordered off the property, with arrests by the police, and now have a permanent court order to stay off the property, called a 'restraining order.' These are people who believe strongly in the Bible and basically begged for help to stem the movement of the gay community against gay marriage, abortion, transgender restrooms, and these representing some of the abominations that are running wild in our nation, and around the world. I have found the Vineyard as seeing the writing on the wall: " You are weighed in the balances and found wanting." The gospel, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, as we ALL shall answer unto God. The Bible is very clear about sin. But it has been years and years that I have heard preaching about sin. Old school preachers are now condemned. The preaching does invite people to go forward and accept Christ, and to be baptized. Several have. But how many stay, and
how many are nurtured? They are left on their own. They have small groups that I have personally attended but there is such a thin veneer of love and Spirit in these meetings, and are lukewarm. They do not stay to the power of the Word of God,
they talk around it. The newcomer is greeted the first meeting, but after that is and have been ignored for the most part. I met a man in one such group, one who had just received Christ the previous Sunday. But the next meetings he was absent. This is only part of the problem. They use the exclusive NIV bible, which is counterfeit
and missing a combination of over 64000 deletions or changes to the Word of God. Read the Book of Revelation and what is in store for those who add to or take away from this book! They will have the plagues added to them for adding to the book, and taking away from it will have their part taken out of the Book of Life. There are more incredible negative and ungodly behaviors too many to name here. STAY AWAY FROM THE VINEYARD. "Come out from among them and be ye separate." I feel for the people there that are true people of God, who love God with all their hearts. But Paul said "Woe is me if I preach not the gospel. He instructed Timothy to preach the word, and he meant "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and as we all will answer unto God."
My venture with the Vineyard Church, 6000 Cooper Rd. Columbus Ohio, started with a lot of uplifting spirit. However I have experienced lots of turmoil and reading on line reports that are staggering to the imagination. The church there especially under the leadership of Rich Nathan, is incredibly cruel to former members and those left and in process of leaving. Pastors also have left. The founder John Wimber did not have enough spiritual insight to fully understand the power of God and even believed that a born again Christian could be possessed by demons! But pray tell me how a demon or devil could co-exist with the Spirit of Jesus Christ inside the Christian? He knew nothing. Such is it with the Vineyard, and in my opinion they appear to be marking themselves as a cult, not a true religion.
They are very welcoming at the start , then they go after your money , they claim to heal the sick, and even do magic style healing in the town square , stay away from them , they are con artists
This is good. My husband goes to a vineyard church and has been for years. We recently got married and I just don't have peace about going to that church. Everything you say is spot on. All works and no love. Such a shame.
I've come to realize they DO NOT put value in the fact that God's word is ALIVE and it is TRUTH. Its all about their works and achievements. Absolutely No Love. The word of God is not first and final authority. At least from what I've seen.
I totally agree with this. Definitely not biblical in so many ways.
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I agree
I agree with this and I see in the life my husband lives every day. All works and no true fruit. It's very disappointing seeing all this work being done for God and very little truth and love in it. He's attended the Vineyard for years. Totally agree with the statement anonymous made below.
"A minimization of thimportance of the Word of God and a focus on experience rather than the word of God" anonymous
I agree with this and have seen it far too many times unfortunately.
Wow! The vineyard got their grubby hands on your blog. The walk, hillsong, vineyard. Any religion that has music, besides hymns, and the "coffee club" atmosphere favors enjoyability over reverence, sound cult-y? Think for yourselves, don't be this sheep. P.S Read the bible and tell me what it considers "spiritual drunkenness". Pretty condemning stuff.
Vineyard is very odd. The "fruit" I've seen from it was:
1) People deciding to quit their jobs and leave to another part of the country because of supposed "prophecies" and being offended by others not allowing them to "minister."
2) Extreme poverty due to #1
3) People who were raised Christian leaving their faith BECAUSE of the emphasis placed on experiences, hyper-charismania, etc.
4) Sin not being called out whatsoever. In one case I knew this lady who literally abuses the crap out of her daughter, does sexual things with men prior to being married to them, etc, but then goes to all the Vineyard meetings to get prophecies that never correct her and her bad relationships or mending the issues with her family. And those supposed prophets at the Vineyard haven't told her to STOP believing a ton of conspiracies.. yeah some "prophets of God" they are!
5) Believing EVERYTHING is from a DEMON. This actually led one girl I met to become an atheist
6) Believing sickness and other things that happen in your life are somehow caused by you...always its YOU, not the fact that this world is fallen and bad things happen to good people. Nope its your fault for your wrong relationship to God. Always.
7) Prophecies that are false abounding like no other. You get the parking lot prophecy, the shirk-and jerk.., etc. All of them have to do with a) your MINISTRY, b) your MISSION c) your DREAM DESTINY d) manifesting XXXXX (insert whatever) e) your PERFECT HAPPY FUTURE. Sometimes people put years on them, other times they are about supposed spouses, etc. I think to be honest they are all false and these people are hearing from the devil to deceive you into being part of the movement, since your sins that separate you from God will never be called out. In one case I heard that someone who was told they would get married, and, after a number of years this never happened. The person was so devastated he killed himself. Some FRUIT that is! I had people (associated with Vineyard/Toronto) tell me all sorts of tall tale prophecies - everything from spouses, to riches, to all sorts of things.. All sorts of things that appeal NOT to God but to your flesh, wrapped up in Christian speak..
8) Experience preaching- they don't preach the Bible, they preach the pastor's experiences and dominionism.
The vineyard "church" is a cult.
They demand your whole world to revolve around their church and it's members and earning their approval as their approval of you is the same as Gods approval of you.
Your identity, your self worth, and your spiritual self worth is based on their approval of you and God sees you as "they" see you.
Completely lacking in interpersonal boundaries and God forbid if you don't agree with them- you're isolated, rejected, and shunned.
They have to know everything about you and they will dictate you how to decide your life decisions saying "God told me you are to do this ....".
No boundaries and total control of their being.
Too much group think control, conformity to their group script, too much pandering of political agendas,
Their gospel is way more important than THE gospel.
For people that soend hours and hours in worship and "teaching" and fellowshipping only amongst themselves, they have no spiritual maturity/fruit/growth whatsoever, no sense a relationship of God outside of the group nor a sense self outside of their group, their group is who they are which sounds OK but really, it's really codependent, toxic, and unhealthy. It becomes their only and whole identity-self worth and without the group, they aren't whole people or "right with God". It's very disturbing.
Very manipulative and self serving of the church leaders.
They are stuck on complete self absorption and they sell their souls and their sense of self to each other.
Healthy people and healthy churches do not demand that you vacate yourself and vacate everything about who you are and base everything about you in their hands and if they don't approve of you, you're nothing in Gods eyes and in their their eyes.
You have to become their exact mirror image to be accepted, loved, "spirituality mentored" and interpersonally/spirituality validated by them.
It's very sick.
My Minor family members have been forced to do a group confession/ "accountability" of their grave sins.
Funny enough, it didn't encourage them in God, they pushed further away from God and went further into the issue they were struggling with.
I've seen it happen over and over with the majority of those who confess their sins in front of the group.
It's not a biblically sound place and it's a rather narcissistic, toxic cult.
I was looking for a christian church in Los Angeles, and once I attend the Vineyard Church I literally felt home. Sound biblical teaching, salt-of the earth members that not just talk but DO what the body of christ is called to do.
I love my community, and I have grown in my faith and in my relationship with God over the past few years since belonging to this church. My daughter loves the children ministry at the Vineyard. It has been a blessing in our lives and the best advice I can give you is to pray to God to lead you in your search and to experience the vineyard for yourself instead of judging it on stories. No matter which church community you are a part of, always be vigilant in prayer and ask for the truth, and pray for each other. God Bless you!
I think my Vineyard experience thus far can be summed up into Josh McDowell's statement - Rules without relationship leads to rebellion. In my experience, I've learned that the Vineyard I've attended promotes relationship before rules. Think about it. Moses didn't get the 10 Commandments - the rules - until after God had guided the Israelites by a cloud in the day and a fire at night, providing mana and water. The relationship, and care for the relationship, came before the rules. This is how Godly Love and Godly boundaries work together. For those who opinion the Vineyard as a cult, remember this - cults try to keep their message closed within. The Vineyard tries to get their message out like crazy. So, my dare and challenge to all who opinion the Vineyard as a cult - What's *your* church doing? What difference are *you* really making? What spiritual food are *you* really getting? How has God grown *you* in the last few days, weeks, or months? Can't answer these questions? Stop making your religion, your need to be right, and your self-reliance into an idol - and get out there and pursue God. He's waiting for you.
After going there members of the church were stalking me and parking there cars in front of my House and making up crimes about people that never happened.
I was part of the Vineyard in the very early days (1976)- long before John Wimber. Kenn Gullickson, Brent Rue, etc. We were all very young, very passionate about Christ, the Bible, serving the Lord. I left in 1985. I think your experiences with the Vineyard depend on the Pastor. Kenn and Brent were wonderful. I think it went downhill after John came. Now, after reading all of the comments, i see that there have been a lot of abuses and shattered lives. I wish it were not so, because when we started it was not like that.
Was raised in campus crusade evangelical tradition. Have spent a lot of time with bible beleoving evangelicals. Some were amazing, some were phenomenally well versed in scripture but had little love. One guy who believed we were heretical when we suggested that we need to ask the Lord to search us deeply in order to see Him transform our lives, kept telling us he was perfected at salvation. After his marriage broke down and the truth came out, it was clear that anyone can learn scriptures but it takes God to teach us grace. I learnt about God's grace through a guy who constantly sinned against me, costing me time money and tons of worry. As we prayed together, tears running down both our faces, the day before he was to be admitted to hospital and die, I realised that God had let me into a privaledged place. The sense of his love and grace was something my 40 years of knowledge had never given me.
As for the vineyard fellowship, I have recently begun attending. I can recognise in some of the people the things that have been said and I can also see a real desire for the opposite. In reality churches are led by humans, people who are often flawed. For those of us who think we know better then our judgements should reflect God's grace within us.
I attended a Vineyard church in the UK, often there were guilt talks about how much we were 'giving', because thats their motto, right? 'Gather, Grow, Give'.
Here was a wealthy area, an amazing building and the pastor wearing old jeans and tee shirt. doing so much good, and all for the flock, right? they call it doing the 'stuff' because thats a funky way of saying it.
The offering baskets go round, and everything now with an envelope for your cheques and notes, small change looks embarrassing, right? and a part for filling in your CC details.
They play on the old 10% tithe trick from the old testament, when in fact God tells the priests that they were doing it for 'a price' and were condemned. The storehouse where the 10% came in were actually food storehouses for the priests, as God had forbidden them to be paid! Funny how that is never explained from the platform!
When you consider that many attending are on salaries of up to 100,000 a year because of the area, it doesnt take long to add up what is coming in, if 10% is actually given by these members.
I happened to go on charity commission website to see how much of the 'giving' actually got given away. Because in the UK you can get hold of the accounts for any charity.
Over 60% of it was on wages, the pastor and his wife pocketing 10,000 UK pounds a month. all expenses paid, insurance, pensions, contributions, car, everything. the rest was admin costs, conferences etc and a small chunk actually went to good causes. And here he was pleading poverty on the platform, telling us its our duty to give.
The vineyard is BIG BUSINESS, it is a brand, it is making a stack of money by people-pleasing and ear-tickling and the feel-good factor.
Their success is enjoying church. No effort. No pain. Feel great. Good bands, lively atmosphere. Entertaining the kids. Its the butlins of Christianity.
But worse than that, its counterfeit Christianity, and it will only be there as long as gullible people keep going along for the fun or not seeing through the facade. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who fall into that category.
also, the 'healings'. announcements about how so-and-so had been healed of earache or backpain. then an announcement that a leader or member had died of cancer after a long struggle. Huh?
it was so ridiculous and in your head you are asking why would God cure a minor thing that wont kill you but let someone faithful die of something that badly needs curing???
there is big emphasis on healing in the Vineyard, and no one can say a word against it. I tried one day and got put in my place, I was heretic, I didnt trust in the Holy Spirit, I was not allowing God to come through. Oh, OK.
There were announcements at the end, the prayer team have told us: someone here with infertility problems, someone who suffers with bad headaches, someone who is stressed to the point of depression, someone... etc. just random stuff that could apply to half the flock and even if no one was there with these problems, who would know then that the announcement is truthful or with insight? You cant prove these things.
In the first century, the apostles and followers of Christ cured 100% everyone they reached out to. why? because Gods holy spirit can only work through bonafide sources.
Go research.
I attended a Vineyard Church in 1981. I had a problem when I decided to leave. The Church itself wasn't the problem, it was a Bible Study leader and his wife, they called me up and said I would be "unsaved " if I left the church. They were also very rude at the Bible Study and talked behind people's back who they believed "didn't fit in" . The wife, would pray over me even if I didn't ask, and took me into their bedroom and started to rant, scream and yell. I was also horrified when the Bible study leader disclosed personal information of someone before the whole Bible study. They shamed a woman who told them in confidence that she had sexually sinned. The made her tell the whole Bible study that she was a "whore" , it was a terrible experience to see a woman so humiliated . They would help the men, but they shamed the women. I'll attach the people's initials , SM, and PM, maybe someone remembers them from the Valley Vineyard. I don't want to mention too much about them, but they were far from Christ Like, they had a clique of favorites and you knew when it wasn't you. When I had finally made up my mind to leave, they would call me and tell me I was a horrible Christian, and wouldn't amount to much in life. I had to have a new phone number, because they would call at all hours.
Years since I have met others, who had a bad experience. I will never return to the Vineyard , many of them are rude, and don't want you to leave. They want to control every aspect of your life. I lived in Woodland Hills and they were in Van Nuys.
This Church allows abuse, and that is the reason I left.
You mean Pam M ? I'll leave the idiots last name out but yeah, she was a loser and ex junkie who did reds. mate land LOL! Talk to me about it at kayla1963oct@aol.com She screwed up my little bro & sis in the youth Bible stud. I hated her; I still hate her . I'll always remember her smarmy tone with my parents, about how she didn't harm their kids. What a liar! The Vineyard is a cult , so please keep your kids from this vipers den, they'll brainwash them. It's easy to brainwash kids cause that's how they screw the whole family. PM you bitch! Sorry folks but that's what she is!
Look I know, Pammy made my little sis confess to premarital sex, in front of the whole effin' Bible class. I would like her to write here, tell me why you hurt my little sis!
Excellent comment, great advice. I do not attend a Vineyard church but I am taking a course thru a Vineyard church created by Putty Putman and I am enjoying it bery much. Be blessed!
Don't let any church take your faith!! Jesus didn't fail you.
I seen the same things at the vineyard people muttering and saying the same things over and over and calling it speaking in tongues. shaking and holy yoga. Blasphemy I tell you!
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I am an Anglican living in the United Kingdom. Now anyone who has attended an Anglican church service will know that things are kept formal (apart from family service) and traditional. There is an organ, an altar in which Holy Communion takes place, an area dedticated for Baptisms and many more traditional aspects of a church. I love the fact that my church remains traditional. Thus obviously the Vineyard church is not the kind of denomination that I would want to be of. You may be thinking Well I do like churches that are contemporary and have a praise band all that kind of jazz. But I warn you that if you attend a church thereof, you may not enjoy the service. The reason for this is that I went to a Vineyard church whilst I was holidaying in the seaside town of Portstewart. (I was there for the New Horizon event in fact). I was young at the time and thus did not really care for tradition at that stage, however looking back at the experience now I can say that the church was really a great show off. The worship was more like a pop concert than a church service, the preacher gave the sermon in barefoot, the church it self was oddly located in a warehouse (which made it seem even more like a pop concert). Now I am not against the Vineyard church but it definitely is not my cup of tea.
Verdict: If you prefer traditional, non-pop concert sort of a church then go somewhere else!
Kayla I remember her! She would be 63 by now, and to my recollection , she and her husband disappeared into thin air in early 1982. I had to find her, due to some legal issues and their duplex had been vacated. The woman was a fraud and a liar,not a woman of God. I believe the couple were acting out to con people.
I remember these dramatic ' hands on prayer sessions' and Pam would lead. There was something very unsettling about those sessions, not of The Lord whatsoever. But to make a long story short, I visited the church, and asked where the couple had gone,no one would help. I was greeted with stares and coldness. The church was covering for them.
Thirty six years, and I'll look back at that experience with disdain.
@David Bishop John 3:16 For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but has eternal life. You have spent so much time reading man’s embellished words that you’ve forgotten God’s simple yet powerfull Word! Go back to Sunday school. Focus on your relationship with God and how you can grow in your love towards Him and towards others. Live the Gospel! Get busy like the Vineyard Churches and DO the Gospel!!!
While it seems outlandish to contemplate, I can assure that the Vineyard Movement has some roots in mind control with Luciferianism generally running rampant in the leadership. While I am unwilling to go into detail here for two reasons: The evidence that I have is from personal experience and it is ... well, personal it is also difficult to believe. I also would like to say that this Luciferian agenda is not limited to the Vineyard. Sadly, people do not realize that Satan has infiltrated nearly all organized churches. If there is a sign out front and a church phone number, then it is very most likely a church where you will not find the narrow way to eternal life.
God requires 100% commitment and All scripture is God Breathed and absolutely true.
I am well aware that most of you will probably reject this post but in the hopes that one may have ears to hear, I absolutely testify with all my heart that I have written the truth.
One more thing:
Luciferianism is pervasive throughout organized Christian churches because these beliefs are the core of Roman Catholicism. Rome and the "Holy See" are actively working to bring about the unification of all protestant religious groups. They are doing this primarily through the Society of Jesus. If you will do a bit of homework, you will find that the Jesuits have been called horrifically evil and detestable by many many many famous leaders throughout history. These leaders include Abraham Lincoln and also John Adams. The following are several quotes.
“My history of the Jesuits is not eloquently written, but it is supported by unquestionable authorities, [and] is very particular and very horrible. Their [the Jesuit Order’s] restoration [in 1814 by Pope Pius VII] is indeed a step toward darkness, cruelty, despotism, [and] death. … I do not like the appearance of the Jesuits. If ever there was a body of men who merited eternal damnation on earth and in hell, it is this Society of [Ignatius de] Loyola.”
John Adams (1735-1826; 2nd President of the United States)
“The Jesuits…are a secret society – a sort of Masonic order – with superadded features of revolting odiousness, and a thousand times more dangerous.”
— Samuel Morse (1791-1872; American inventor of the telegraph
This [American Civil] war [of 1861-1865] would never have been possible without the sinister influence of the Jesuits. We owe it to popery that we now see our land reddened with the blood of her noblest sons. Though there were great differences of opinion between the South and the North on the question of slavery, neither Jeff Davis [President of the Confederacy] nor anyone of the leading men of the Confederacy would have dared to attack the North, had they not relied on the promises of the Jesuits, that under the mask of Democracy, the money and arms of the Roman Catholic, even the arms of France, were at their disposal if they would attack us. I pity the priests, the bishops and monks of Rome in the United States, when the people realize that they are, in great part, responsible for the tears and the blood shed in this war. I conceal what I know on that subject from the knowledge of the nation, for if the people knew the whole truth, this war would turn into a religious war, and it would at once take a tenfold more savage and bloody character. It would become merciless as all religious wars are. It would become a war of extermination on both sides.”
— Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865; 16th President of the United States)
There are a great many more quotes from famous men and women about this group. There is an author named Chiniquy who wrote a book that is filled with them.
In closing, after much dogged research, I discovered that the very first meeting after their separation from Calvary Chapel of the Vineyard Church was led by John Wimber and held in a Masonic Temple in Yorba Linda California.
The Vineyard was intentionally evil from it's inception.
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Hi,
I attended a Vineyard church in Kansas City, Missouri for eight years. It was a great church. We had free Wednesday night dinners that anyone was welcome to attend. They did not solicit offerings as part of the service. There were offering boxes in the lobby, and it was up to you, when and how much to give. The principle of tithing and offerings was known, but rarely was it a part of the sermon. Maybe once a year it would be preached. There were a whole host of wonderful classes to take in the evening-everything from Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace, Grief Share, Celebrate Recovery, Divorce Care, the Alpha Course, and many other classes on Christianity. There were bible study groups, a singles group, married couples groups, etc. I learned a lot about Christianity. I grew in my relationship with Christ. And I experienced a lot of enjoyment and fun and love with the church members in the various groups and activities. I never have heard anything about "Holy Laughter." I had never heard that until I read this blog. As for speaking in tongues, our Pastor said it is a way of deepening your faith. He was not against it, and said he had spoke in tongues on occasion, but speaking in tongues was not the worship style at our Vineyard Church, in my experience. I had seen speaking in tongues only at some Assembly of God churches I had attended, when occasionally a person would start speaking in tongues during the morning sermon. The worship style in the Vineyard Church is contemporary, with a modern band with guitars, drums and singers."Hyper-Charismatic" is a fair comment. The Vineyard Church is a dynamic church for people who really want to grow in their relationship with Christ, learn more about Christianity, and give and receive the love of Christ with the people they are around in church and in everyday life. You can not possibly learn about a church by "googling" it. If you truly want to know what a church is like, get in your car and go to the nearest one in person. That is the only way to find out!
Saddleback, the vineyard, Lakewood and all the rest of these seeker-sensitive and social gospel churches have substituted the gospel issues of righteousness and redemption with humanistic self improvement. Learning how to better manage your money, and learning how to become a better father, a better husband, a better wife has absolutely nothing to do with the sacrifice Christ offered to God at the cross. Bible study at these places usually consists of people seated in a circle and asking each other, "So what did it mean to you?" And yet people who regularly attend these "churches" will nevertheless claim that learning things like how to respect the opposite sex or how to recover from a tragedy in their life deepened their relationship with Christ. No, I'm afraid all it did was deepen their self righteousness and their love for the flesh.
Many, like myself, have turned away from the shallow, pragmatic emotionalism of these self seeking churches after recognizing a hunger for serious theological study. What is truth is a question Pilate asked of Christ. "Quid est veritas?" I cannot imagine Christ answering, "truth is learning how budget your paycheck better." Yuck!
I have attended a Vineyard church for several years now. I can honestly say I have not experienced these negative things. I've heard some very godly sermons, met very godly people who are anything but narcissistic. While the Church's main job is to spread the Gospel , we are also called to feed the hungry, help the poor, Matthew 25:31-46. Teaching people to budget the money that God has allowed them to earn is part of good stewardship. I can honestly say that Vineyard Cincinnati is nothing like the negative comments I've seen on here, and neither have I seen or heard any false doctrine. While no church is perfect, Vineyard Cincinnati is a great witness to Cincinnati and the world. God doesn't call His children to sit, criticize and do nothing!
Amen, Cathy Wallace!
I was a member of a Vineyard church for eighteen years. I served on the hospitality team, the prayer team, and in outreach programs. In the entire eighteen years I attended, I heard nothing about redemption or sin or God's justice or the law or propitiation or imputation or justification or the gospel or God's wrath or the coming day of judgment.
For eighteen consecutive years, all I ever heard instead were the same stylized, self-empowering, feel-good, self-improvement messages that are taught by people like Tony Robbins and football coaches at self-help seminars and in university locker rooms; you have it within you to improve because you are loved, you're special, and you matter.
Rather than hearing about man's need for redemption, what I heard instead was Jesus loves you and wants you to now become the best you that you can be; the best dad, the best mom, the best husband, the best wife, the best neighbor, the best employee and so on.
I kept reading my Bible and finding myself confused, because nothing I read was matching up with what I was being told, nor was anything I was being taught answering any of the questions the Bible was raising. When I finally asked one of the pastors why no one there taught any doctrine, his answer came in the form of a sharp rebuke; "because our doctrine is the do what Christ told us to do," he said.
What Christ told us to do is believe that we are sinners justly condemned and in need of Christ's bloody, sacrificial death. He didn't say jack squat about believing we can be better parents or better spouses or any other of that other self-improvement nonsense. I challenge anyone in these comments to Google "Joel Osteen's commentary on John 4 and the woman at the well", and then Google and compare it with John Gill's commentary on the same passage. You will find out quickly just who the spiritual conman is.
Kev, your post provided sound insight. May the Lord Jesus bless your testimony and may He use you to share His Word with those caught unawares in this movement and grant them repentance that they may recover and be loosed from Satan's captivity.
Preach it, David. The love for the Lord and His Word flows mightily from your post. What a blessing as I have been seeking insight on this as I have an elderly friend who is a sister in Christ who wanted me to come to hear a Robby Dawkins. Googling him led me to Todd White, and eventually to Vineyard and this page. Very grateful for your insight and I also pray that the Lord will use your testimony of how the Lord Jesus pulled you free from the seducing spirits behind this.
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